The ever popular "rear alignment" issue

Topics relating to Lift Kits, Suspension, Steering...

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1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:59 pm

Below are some pictures with lift, first is pre-lift. Post lift follows, can't fit in garage backing in with roof rack. Can't figure out how to post pics so I'll pasting the links instead.

http://www.graffixoutfitter.com/Photos/ ... -k6VtGsR/A
http://www.graffixoutfitter.com/Photos/ ... -gHfpZPf/A
http://www.graffixoutfitter.com/Photos/ ... -gxJ8BfR/A
http://www.graffixoutfitter.com/Photos/ ... -GRVQp9Z/A


Livinfly
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:00 pm
Location: Aspen, CO

Postby Livinfly » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:06 am

1handle

Damn! Your rig looks great, Love the height... perfect.

After running the HD 4x4parts springs would you recommend them or should I try another option. Love the fact that there HD’s add 1.75â€. Looks great, and I’d prefer to longer springs than throwing spacers on the MDs.

That nissantec lift is insanely awesome, shoulda got that from the get go.

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:05 pm

Hmmm, tough choice. I picked HD because I sometimes fill up all 3 rows with people. Then the Costco trips. Some forums say the HDs from 4x4parts are too stiff, they joke that you'll break the rancho xls. Been over a month, no problems yet. I was very aware of the alignment problems before diving into the lift. I read MD OMEs were better but I was bent on getting the full package from 4x4parts because of the cost. So I went for it. I'm trying to convince myself that the rocking should be no big deal, alignment is in spec after bushings so I do have some type of comfort. The HDs lifted the rear by more than 2" btw. They settled somewhat, but it's still taller than the advertised 1.75". My honest recommendation would be to go with Nisstec, they seem to have better combined components that will work together. But, we got wives and she will never let me spend $1700 on a lift. :(

kevinthefro
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
Location: Torrance, CA

Postby kevinthefro » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:42 pm

1handle wrote:Thanks Marsdawg, the bushings you recommended did indeed get the get the job done. Camber is now in spec., a bit more relieved regarding stability when turning. Not so worried about new tires getting worn out too uneven anymore (Pirelli Scorpion ATR LT265/75/16).

After install of bushing, they did realign all 4 again, below compares alignment after bushing install and the subsequent adjustment.
I do love the lift, can now visually compete with the 4Runners. I have all shocks set to 9, very stiff, how a truck should ride like. The squat in the rear is gone and I couldn't stand the really obvious negative camber on the rears before the lift. Really happy with it. And it did rear coils did settle about 0.25"-0.5". Been about 3 weeks with the lift, good ride. No complaints yet. Was it worth the money spent? It has been 10 years into planning so I would give it a definite yes!!

For those who are interested, I'll list shock PNs below that I received from 4x4parts.com.
4x4parts.com Deluxe Suspension Package Item No. SPAC05DPKGRANQL
Front Suspension Components-Qty. 2 Rancho Quicklift assemblies (Strut and coil) Rancho PN: RS999922
Rear Suspension Components-Qty. 2 Rancho RS9000XL struts PN: RS999312 + 2x 4x4Parts.com HD Coils.

Below are the alignments specs after suspension install and adjustable bushing install.

After Suspension Install
Before Alignment
Camber LF: +1.0 Camber RF: +0.8
Caster LF: +2.9 Caster RF: +2.8
Toe LF: +0.34 Toe RF: +0.33

Camber LR: +1.5 Camber RR: +1.1
Toe LR: -0.42 Toe RR: -0.6

After Alignment
Camber LF: +0.9 Camber RF: +1.0
Caster LF: +2.9 Caster RF: +2.8
Toe LF: +0.07 Toe RF: +0.13

Camber LR: +1.3 Camber RR: +1.3
Toe LR: +0.08 Toe RR: -0.03
TOTAL TOE: 0.03
THRUST ANGLE: 0.05

After bushing install
Before Alignment
Camber LF: +0.5 Camber RF: +1.4
Caster LF: +2.7 Caster RF: +3.0
Toe LF: +0.25 Toe RF: +0.18

Camber LR: -0.5 Camber RR: -0.6
Toe LR: +0.03 Toe RR: -2.03

After Alignment (existing condition)
Camber LF: +1 Camber RF: +0.8
Caster LF: +2.7 Caster RF: +3.0
Toe LF: +0.11 Toe RF: +0.10
Front TOTAL TOE: +0.21
Steer Ahead: 0.00

Camber LR: 0.0 Camber RR: +0.3
Toe LR: +0.01 Toe RR: -0.11
Rear TOTAL TOE: -0.11
Thrust Angle: +0.06
Hello 1handle,

I think your rear toe may still be a bit off. It falls within the FSM range for "in spec" but "nominal" rear toe is -1.9mm per side. With a stock tire diameter of 30.5", that equates to -0.14 degrees per side, aka -0.28 total.
I had the rear aligned multiple times and found that being even slightly off of ideal makes a big difference in the tendency to dart and rock.
I suspected my alignment shop was just getting it close and calling it good so I made a toe gauge and aligned the rear myself. Total rear toe should be -3.9mm with stock tires, or -3.5mm with 33" tires. I was able to get it to -3mm. After a couple of years of trying everything under the sun including multiple sets of shocks, springs, spacers, and all six rear control arms, making the toe nominal is the one thing that made the vehicle about as stable as before the lift.

Kevin

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Hey Kevin, thank you for the feedback; I really appreciate it. I just called the shop after reading your post; they said the same thing when I first complained, "you may want to call the shock mfgr......". I went ahead and insisted that i'll be bringing in the truck on Thursday, although I'm not expecting much from them. So say worse case they don't change anything; can you go into more detail on how you did you make the toe gauge and how were you able to align it yourself; step by step DIY instructions would be really helpful so I can review and see if I can do the same. Well maybe after I get this N-Fab prerunner light bar on this thing. Again, thank you very much for the feedback.

-Walter

kevinthefro
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
Location: Torrance, CA

Postby kevinthefro » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:12 pm

Hi Walter,

No problem. I've been figuring this out as I go and I haven't taken a series of pictures to illustrate but I'll give you what I have right now.

Camber is easy. I used one of these http://www.rockler.com/wixey-digital-an ... 5QEALw_wcB
Just hold it flat against the wheel and adjust the cam as needed. Since the wheel is slightly convex, take a reading at the top and the bottom and use the average.

Toe is more complicated.
My procedure is sort of a hybrid from a DIY procedure I found in the Internet and the factory service manual (http://www.thenissanpath.com/filelib/R51B/FSU.pdf, page 8 and http://www.thenissanpath.com/filelib/R51B/RSU.pdf Page 7) so there may be a better way but this seems to work:
The toe gauge is sort of a giant caliper like this https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 7990915547
I made mine from some scrap metal. The object is to get two pointers that can touch the wheels in the center. The exact width is irrelevant, you just want to mark a reference on the fronts of the tires, then compare the backs.
1) Spray some white paint on the tread in the center of each rear tire by the rear sills. You want your marks to be exactly halfway up the height of the tires. Running boards might get in the way of this - I removed mine long ago.
2) Slide the toe gauge under the car and get the pointers more or less in the center of each tire. This is the reference offset of zero at the front of the tires.
3) Mark the pointer locations by scratching the white paint with a scribe or the like.
4) Remove rear mud flaps.
5) Roll vehicle backwards until the tires have rotated exactly 180 degrees. Now the paint spots and scribe marks will be on the backs of the tires, at the same height as they were on the front.
6) Chock tires from rolling any further backward.
7) Slide the gauge behind the tires and line one side up with a scribe mark. The other tire's scribe mark and pointer will be your toe. In other words, if the scribe mark and pointer line up exactly, then the tires are exactly parallel and toe is zero. If the scribe mark is outside the pointer by 6mm, then total toe is -6mm, aka toed in. If the scribe mark is inside the pointer by 6mm, then total toe is +6mm, aka toed out. The range is in RSU page 23, 2.8mm to -10.4mm, with a "nominal" value of -3.9mm total toe. Adjusted for 33" tires, -3.5 would be the same angle. Millimeters are very small and hard to see so I rounded down to -3mm as my goal.
8) Calculate correction:
Last weekend I did this and the marks moved apart by 13mm when I moved the marks from the front to back. So -13mm toe measured, goal is -3mm. To change the toe by 10mm I had to bring the backs in by 5mm, because the fronts move apart by the same amount, so total toe change is twice the adjustment. Reducing 13mm by 5mm will result in 8mm between the mark and the pointer.
9) Adjust cams - FSM says each cam increment is about 1.5mm, but it's wrong. It actually changes by twice that. Also remember you're adjusting both sides, so one increment each side will change toe by about 6mm.
Desired 5mm total change is 2.5mm each side which is less than one increment on the cams.
10) Make sure chocks are in place - the only reason for the chocks is to make it easier to get the tires in exactly the same spot.
11) Roll car forward several feet to relieve tension in the tires, then roll it back, gently touching the chocks - you don't want any pressure on the tires that will affect the toe.
12) Slide gauge behind tires again and check measurement, if it's not 8mm, adjust and repeat steps 10-12
13) Reinstall mud flaps

This is easier than it sounds.

Kevin
Last edited by kevinthefro on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:41 pm

Thanks Kevin, do I have to adjust the bushings for UCAs at all you think?
Below is link and image to the bushings.

https://www.4x4parts.com/i-22756999-rea ... hings.html

Image

kevinthefro
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
Location: Torrance, CA

Postby kevinthefro » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:29 am

Hi Walter,

You should only need to adjust your bushings if your cam bolts run out of range.

Here is a DIY procedure very similar in principal to the one i did, using a stick as a gauge:
http://mercedes-diy-alignment.blogspot. ... nment.html
I would just note that he took his measurements close to the ground which is OK for zero toe, but to reach a specific value the measurements should be halfway up the tire from the ground.
I like his turn plate idea, which eliminates the need to roll the car back and forth.

Regards,
Kevin

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:07 pm

Thanks Kevin, at the shop now. Owner kind enough to drop me back to work, which was good because he felt the rocking motion. Will post update later, but he's taking your pointers as he didn't really know what actual fix would be. He said he'll shoot for -0.11 to -0.14 toe on each side for rear and he'll try to get camber closer. And he said he won't charge, we shall see. Thanks again for all of your inputs, greatly appreciated.

kevinthefro
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
Location: Torrance, CA

Postby kevinthefro » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:58 pm

I hope it helps.

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
Contact:

Postby 1handle » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:41 am

Update:

Alignment went well, he got toe to -0.17 on both rears. He drove it a few times, the darting (which is what I now believe to be the proper terminology) has minimized, but it is still present.

To describe it exactly, when faster than 60mph and driving over a dip or bump (where overpass begins), the truck rocks left to right. The rocking seems to begin on the left. So the truck dips on the left, with a slight pull back motion, then darts to the right front with a slight pushing motion, and recoils back to the left. All within 1.5 seconds so it's a quick left right left motion. When I first had the springs installed, no such effect. Struts were set to 5 by default, after two days with lift, I cranked them up to 9. I drove it for about 1.5 weeks with + camber on rear while waiting for the adjustable bushings.

After the bushing was installed, that's when the darting began. After yesterday's alignment, the 'range' seems to have shortened. Range, I would define as, how much travel and time the rocking moves from one side to the other. It is shorter now, but it is till not the original or normal up and down motion only when driving straight thru a dip/bump. Darting was more pronounced before the re-alignment. Darting is still present, just not as bad.

Shop believes the rear passenger shock may be bad. I'm hesitant on buying that theory. He also mentioned that he is able to push down on rear bumper and the rear bounces twice. He said it shouldn't bounce twice when dampening on the shocks are set to 9. So I did the same exercise to validate the bounce, and it does bounce, but what does that mean exactly??? Does that confirm that the shocks are bad? I don't think so. But I will take a part each knob once this rain stops, put grease over the plunger, cycle dampening knob a few times and crank them up to 9 again. Now planning to purchase Nisstec package, maybe two-three years from now assuming these Ranchos live that long, need to let the dust settle with the boss first.

kevinthefro
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:14 pm
Location: Torrance, CA

Postby kevinthefro » Fri May 04, 2018 6:08 pm

Just thought of this - the sway bar bushings are notorious for getting sloppy.

1handle
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Thanks Kevin,
Will look into that if shock replacement (rear driver side) doesn't work. Dropping off the truck to the same shop this Wednesday. Wish me luck.

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
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Postby 1handle » Thu May 10, 2018 7:10 pm

Update: Just got the truck back, drove it home and so far so good. No abnormal shimmies, darting, rocking. Too early to conclude that it's permanently gone, but it is better after a new rear shock was installed.

1handle
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:08 pm
Location: San Jose CA
Contact:

Postby 1handle » Fri May 11, 2018 6:29 pm

Meh, still the same. Time to go to the dealership. For those who have installed these adjustable UCA bushings, can you guys send me pictures of how they look under the truck?


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